Change....

[mdehners]

is something those of us with a handful of decades on Middenngeard Know quite well. Thing is, we tend to pay attention to the Tech and Social Changes. We tend not to really notice the Spiritual ones until they "bite you on your arse";>...
For me, there's been a lot of changes since I 1st discovered alt-rel in the 70's. Back then there was a couple of Wiccan TRads, a number of Pagan ones(Reconstructionist,Inspired and just plain made up)and Hinduism. Yes, the latter was part of the "community", if you could call it that. 'Course, unlike today most were Christian Converts, usually who did so in their Teens or 20's, not like today which most are Immigrants and children thereof. A LOT has changes since then. I watched those Inspired by WIcca demand to be called "Wiccan" and then yrs later drop the term for "Pagan". Many of the Ways that were around when I was in college are long gone, probably not even a single Practitioner left.Heathenry went from basically being "Paganism for Jocks" to a family-oriented Scholarly Way.
Recently, I was reading about how one of the Founders of "Reclaiming" decided to leave because it had changed too much for her. I think it's hardest on those who considered themselves "Avante-Garde" to find THEY'RE now the "Old Poops". It was funny to me, since our covens were members of COG back in the early 80's and we considered them "Pagan" because there wasn't enough of Wicca in their Practices to call them "Eclectic Wiccan". That same bunch and their Practices are too Conservative for the Present membership.
On a lot of lists/groups/etc you'll oft see posts about the lack of "Elders". Well, there's a couple of reasons for this:
If a Way is too Obsessed with Change, NO ONE can be an Elder because NO ONE has enough time to Deeply Learn ANYTHING
Depending on the Way, those with much Experience can be treated quite differently. A few get Respect for their Work, most get talked over,marginalized,or actively driven out.
Their Way may have changed so much that, for all intensive purposes it's a different Way
You just get tired of the same fukk'n questions being asked over-n-over, usually during the same fukk'n MONTH!!!!!

So, it's not surprising why so many with more than a decade or more in their particular Way are not "Active". Chances are, they ARE...at least Spiritually. Probably more than when they were listening to yet another "Chicken! Egg!" arguement the 5th time that quarter.....
Cheers,
Pat

Comments

[herlander_refugee]

I've observed a lot of this from the outside as a very solitary sort. Another reason so many traditions can't get "elders" is because as soon as one of those possible elders says something unpopular they are basically told to shut up and/or get out. And yes, the repeated going over the same shit again and again and again.....good grief, the drivel is a tsunami at times.

I find it odd that after a lot of cries about how everyone needs to come out of the broom closet, more and more people quietly step back IN...not because of fears of public revelation of their orientation vis a vis the Dieties, but because of the snip/snap/snurr of their presumed co-religionists.

[mdehners]

I've basically been "Out" of both "Closets" since college.Don't make a big deal about either but don't hide it. I'd ask for time off for ______ and if asked to bring someone, I'd "do you think "would be welcome?". And Truth is, I've had WAY more non-Christian Asshats than Christian in my Life.
The last time we'd decided to NOT go to the local Pagan gathering was because a group of Polyamourous folks thought it'd be "fun" to "Freak the Mundanes" with simulated Sex. It was that no one thought doing this in front of little kids(they were Christian but I'm not a big fan of copulating faux or otherwise in front of ANY kids, no matter who their parent's Spiritual Service Provider IS)was a problem and that we were making a big deal out of it. "Being a Good Example" is something way too Old Fashioned and Boring for today's folks.I guess that's also a part of being Older. Remembering a time when just folks thinking you were a "Satanist" could get you Fired or Evicted....no matter WHAT the laws stated about "Religious Freedom". A big change for those who live in a time where folks with face Tats are looked at as "slightly eccentric";>
Cheers,
Pat

[brock_tn]

Had something happen like that at a gathering in Tennessee, and I pulled out a cellphone and explained to the ringleader that I was going to call the Dickson County Sheriff and report them for sexual abuse of children. They tried to argue and I pointed out that Tennesse is a MANDATORY universal reporting state, and that I wasn't about to spend time in the slammer for something THEY did. Sorta put paid to the whole thing real quick like.

I agree with the general tenor of your original post. The response that I think people SHOULD take is to continue to engage in whatever practice best suits them, with as much integrity and rigor as they may, and to ignore what other people think and say. That, and be open to the idea that if one DOES do things in that way, there will be people who will see that one's practice has value, and who will want to pursue a similar practice for reasons similar to one's own. And THOSE are then the people one should consider teaching.

It's pretty obvious that if you let the lunatics run the asylum, well, what you get isn't real pretty. As I pointed out in another context, there's a reason we have a proverb that says "In your haste to make new friends, be careful not to trample your old friends underfoot."

[mdehners]

Also, Change isn't always Good. Processed Foods may be Convenient but they aren't the same as those made fresh, not to mention with good to great ingredients as well as Cooked well;>.
Back in the late 80's I was involved with a CR grove(well, was actually one of the Founders). We had one Seeker who was a True Beleiver in the Loopiest newage crap. When I started to simply point out that Druids DID NOT have "spacecraft Powered by Crystals" I was told to leave be and she'd be "eased" into a Fact-based Celtic Spirituality slowly. Scary thing was it made me long for the days with the Eejits who though Starhawk's 'Mists of Avalon' was non-Fiction......
Cheers,
Pat

[brock_tn]

I feel compelled to point out that it was the late Marion Zimmer Bradley who wrote The Mists of Avalon, and not Starhawk. I say this because I happend to be present at a science-fiction convention at which MZB was a guest when a Sweet Young Thing wearing about five pounds of fake amber beads and badly cast pewter pendants came floating up to MZB gushing about how Mists of Avalon was her favoriteist book EVER, and oh, the wonderfulness and mystic significance of it all...

MZB looked her dead in the eye and said: "Honey, get a grip. It's fiction. That means I made it all up. It isn't real. If you want to have a spritual experience there are all sorts of ways to go about it. But basing what you are doing on one of my novels is NOT one of them."

I will treasure that moment forever.

[mdehners]

Sorry, I meant MZB, though Starhawk's '5th Sacred Thing' caused almost as much stupidity and for a Gay man who has actually LIVED in San Francisco before, her portrayal of us was a bit demeaning;>.
I loved all her books....well up to the one's Diana Got Wrote for her when she became really ill.
Cheers,
Pat

[herlander_refugee]

I've had equal parts pagan and Christian asshattery, to be honest.

But yes, when attention-seeking exhibitionists decide to take over public rites, I tend to get a bit snarly myself. And people who think it is cute to call non-pagans "muggles" or "cohens" irritate the hell out of me, too.

I am a crotchety old lady, while not prudish at all and not easily shocked...I simply think some gravitas would go a long way in ANY sort of spiritual/religious occasion behavior.

[mdehners]

Sadly, that's why so many Heathen Kindreds no longer are involved with the Pagan Community in general and festivals in particular. We tend to think of our Rites AS religious. It drives Heathens crazy knowing that most Pagans will give more Respect to the Rites of JCI Faiths than those related to theirs OR EVEN THEIR OWN.
And that's just public behavior. That's not EVEN getting into the Theological differences between Heathenry and Modern Paganism, differences that most Heathens Feel most Pagans simply "blow off".
One of the quickest ways a Pagan can cause a Heathen to consider their Opinions inconsequential is after a discussion on the differences between Polytheistic and Duo/Monist Beleif systems is for the Pagan to tell the Heathen,"Well, They're ALL just God/dess anyway"......
Cheers,
Pat

[brock_tn]

I'm a hard polytheist myself. I've had too many experiences of personal gnosis to believe that the Gods are anything other than separate individuals. And while I've joined in the occasional blot or sumbel over the years, it's not a form of religious practice that works very well for me. Which probably explains why I'm not heathen. At the same time, it's not part of my job description to try to tell heathens how to practice their religion. I've got more than enough work to do dealing with the idiots who want to practice MY religion the wrong way.

[herlander_refugee]

Brock, you are a very good argument for cloning. There are SO many idiots to be dealt with....but only one YOU!

[mdehners]

Back in "The Olden Days" when I'd Teach, I'd point out to students that it never hurts to treat Them as Individuals, even if you happen to be a even a "Closet" Monist. It's basic Manners.
Cheers,
Pat

[herlander_refugee]

:::::face palm:::::

And yet have you ever noticed how touchy that sort gets if a Christian says "Well, you know, it could just be Mary?"

[mdehners]

Not that they would "Get It". You can even show them many instances where Christians have written that Pagan God/desses were "Masks" that YHVH wore because "those people(s)" weren't "Evolved" enough for Monotheism and they'll still say, "It's not the same thing".
In my 20's and 30's I'd argue with them. In my 40's I'd try to reason with them. In my 50's? I ignore them;>.....
It's better in my 50's;>
Cheers,
Pat

[herlander_refugee]

Critical reasoning and broad mindedness does not seem to be anything common these days. Yes, I am pretty past the reasoning stage, too. And of late, apparently I can't even maintain a conversation with fellow pagans lately.

I like hermit life, mostly.....sometimes more than others!